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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from australia for science and reason

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic's own podcast

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episode number 726 for the 4th of

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september

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2022

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richard saunders coming to you from let

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me have a look at the skeptic's own

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window overcast

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gray windy threatening terrain

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sydney australia

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coming up on this week's show an

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interesting story those of you in

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australia and possibly around the world

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may have caught up with the news

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that in the last week chris dawson was

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found guilty of the murder of his wife

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lynette dawson

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around about 40 years ago

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this has been an on and off case for

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many years

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and

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amazingly after 40 years chris dawson

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was convicted of the murder

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it's still a mystery as to the

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whereabouts of the body

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and it is hoped

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now

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that uh the convicted murderer might

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divulge

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where the body is however he still

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maintains his innocence so i don't think

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that's likely what is even more unlikely

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is that the police will discover where

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the body is through the aid of a psychic

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and that's the story today a couple of

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years ago

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when this case went to court in a sort

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of a pre-hearing a committal hearing i

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think they call it

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i was in court the day a psychic gave

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evidence believe it or not

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and this is uh

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just one of the most bizarre stories

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however i wrote a report about it at the

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time for the skeptic magazine and i will

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read that report for you today that

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includes comments by nicholas cowdery

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who used to be the director of public

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prosecutions here in new south wales a

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psychic in court coming up at the top of

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the show following that it's the book of

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tim part two

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of an equally unlikely

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phenomena

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unicorns

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and this of course is a reading from the

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pages of the skeptic magazine the

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journal from australian skeptics

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following that it's a story about

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anti-vaxxers having to cough up

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hundreds of thousands of dollars in

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legal fees after a failed

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case against the government find out

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more later on in the show then we wander

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back to those

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trove archives this week we're looking

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for references to

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the zodiac

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are you an aries are you a pisces i bet

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you right now listening to me in your

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car driving along i bet you're a

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capricorn

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well some of you probably are

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then to round off the show

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another skeptical poem by our dear

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departed friend jim wilshere

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and uh this poem is all about the zodiac

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it's called zodiac man

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now before we get stuck into the show a

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sad announcement another one

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from me about uh a man i haven't seen

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for many many many years but he was an

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early influence on me when i joined the

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skeptical organization

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bob nixon from victoria he was an

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investigator

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and

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i sort of i sort of was a bit jealous of

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him at the very beginning because i was

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just this new kid on the block and bob

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was running around investigating ghosts

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and

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thought that's that's that sounds like

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fun i wouldn't do that

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i met him a couple of times over the

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years at conventions and whatnot

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but uh sadly earlier this year we

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learned that uh bob has passed away so

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condolences to his friends and his

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family

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in his time with the skeptical

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organization bob certainly accomplished

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a lot of uh interesting things in fact

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if you go to the youtube page of the

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australian skeptics you'll see one of

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bob's investigations you know what i

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will link directly to that in this

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week's show notes

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so if you go to skepticzone.tv scroll to

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the bottom of this week's show notes

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uh you'll see a little section where you

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can see one of bob's adventures with a

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mysterious cross of light that appeared

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in a bathroom window

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well that's enough for me at the moment

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what did i have last week i think i had

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what was it toast and butter or honey or

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something like that this week i think

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i'll run downstairs and have the last

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tin the last can

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tin can

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it's aluminium of

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my favorite root beer which

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a couple of weeks ago was delivered to

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me all the way from atlanta georgia by

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dr angie mattke i had hoped to interview

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dr angie i did catch up with her but we

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were having too much fun having a dinner

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and a catch-up for me to do an interview

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but thank you dr angie who is deeply

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involved with dragon con at the moment

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how i miss dragon con while i run

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downstairs have that last root beer i

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hope you enjoy

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[Music]

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tuesday the 30th of

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august 2022 saw the end

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presumably the end of a very long

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running

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legal crime case here in australia that

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is the disappearance and presumed murder

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of lynette dawson way back in 1982.

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a couple of years ago her former husband

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chris dawson was finally charged with

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her murder

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and after delays going to covert and a

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lengthy trial

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yesterday the judge handed down his

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verdict

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after reading his reasoning

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via live stream

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for five hours before

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announcing his verdict

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now the reason i bring this up is that

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i've been following this case from a

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certain angle

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because years ago many years ago a

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so-called psychic detective debbie

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malone became involved in the case

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and i outlined more about that in a

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previous

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episode of the skeptic zone which was uh

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broadcast in february of 2020

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and if you care to look that up at

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skepticzone.tv that's skeptic zone

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episode number 592

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on the 16th of february 2020. which

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by the way

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was also the very first episode in which

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our reporter michelle pikusma appeared

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to give her logical fallacy series

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in that episode i mentioned that i was

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actually in court when debbie malone was

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called as a witness

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in a pre-trial a pre-hearing for the

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main trial

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and i mentioned that i would be writing

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a report about it so i think now is a

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good time as any to read you the report

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i wrote

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about that occasion and this was

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published in the skeptic magazine the

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journal from australian skeptics volume

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40 number one in march 2020

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[Music]

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together with my report comments by

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nicholas caldery

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oaqc a longtime friend of the australian

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skeptics and former new south wales

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director of public prosecutions

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a psychic

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in court

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richard saunders reports on the unusual

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situation of someone who claims to have

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psychic powers appearing in the witness

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box and nicholas cowdery aoq

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looks at some of the legal implications

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it would be hard to imagine there are

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many in australia who have not heard of

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the case of lynette dawson who went

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missing from her sydney northern beach's

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home in 1982

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after decades of speculation late in

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2018 her husband christopher dawson was

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charged with her murder the committal

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hearing of christopher dawson was held

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in sydney at the downing center courts

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in february 2020. the hearing concluded

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with dawson being committed to stand

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trial later this year for the murder of

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his wife and as i've just mentioned

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that was significantly delayed

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until this year because of covert 19.

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i spent one morning in the public

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gallery standing at the back of the

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court to hear firsthand the questioning

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of a witness

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one debbie malone

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during the committal hearing

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malone is known to me as she was one of

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the contestants on the tv show the one

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where i appeared as the skeptical judge

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she is also possibly australia's highest

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profile so-called psychic detective and

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claims to have helped police in

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investigations going back many years

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as a background malone was apparently

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interviewed by police in 2003 by way of

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a psychic session

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with members of lynette dawson's family

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present

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this was recorded at the time and part

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of this audio eventually ended up being

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broadcast on the teacher's pet podcast

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i bumped into debbie malone on my way

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into the courtroom we greeted each other

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and exchanged pleasantries i wished her

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well in court and proceeded into the

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room

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as malone was being called upon as a

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witness she needed to wait outside until

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summoned

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this happened as soon as magistrate

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jacqueline tread opened proceedings

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malone was sworn in and took her place

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in the witness box

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what follows comes from my hand written

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notes and other reports in the media and

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covers some of the points from about an

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hour of questioning from the defense and

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prosecution i offer this

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with no extra comment on my part for it

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is possible that persons mentioned may

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take part in future court proceedings

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involving christopher dawson

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and i might come back to that point

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after i finish reading this report the

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council for the prosecution made it

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clear that malone was

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quote a person who forms no part of the

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prosecution case unquote

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council then asked malone only a few

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questions one of them being

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what malone's profession was

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psychic medium and author was her reply

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she also said she applied for no rewards

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in the case council confirmed with her

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that she took an interest in the lynette

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dawson disappearance after watching

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australian story on abc tv in 2003 which

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covered the matter

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then council for the defense took up the

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questioning council asked malone what

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was her expertise to which she answered

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she can see people who are deceased

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further questioning along this line led

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malone to say that she uses psychometry

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the supposed ability of gaining

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information about a deceased person from

284
00:11:54,710 --> 00:11:52,320
the energy of personal objects

285
00:11:56,949 --> 00:11:54,720
council asked malone if anyone had

286
00:11:59,829 --> 00:11:56,959
trained her in her profession and malone

287
00:12:02,870 --> 00:11:59,839
answered she had taken part in a quote

288
00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:02,880
learning circle in gaimia end quote she

289
00:12:08,710 --> 00:12:06,160
also mentioned texts from the psychical

290
00:12:10,790 --> 00:12:08,720
research society of england presumably

291
00:12:11,829 --> 00:12:10,800
referring to the society for psychical

292
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:11,839
research

293
00:12:17,030 --> 00:12:14,880
questioning then focused on how

294
00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:17,040
and when malone was put in touch with

295
00:12:22,069 --> 00:12:19,360
detectives involved with the lynette

296
00:12:25,829 --> 00:12:22,079
dawson disappearance case malone said it

297
00:12:29,269 --> 00:12:25,839
was via the producers at abc tv whom she

298
00:12:30,949 --> 00:12:29,279
contacted after viewing australian story

299
00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:30,959
this also led to contact with the

300
00:12:35,590 --> 00:12:33,200
brother and sister of lynette dawson

301
00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:35,600
malone said detective damien loon was

302
00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:38,880
open to her help and did not tell her he

303
00:12:44,230 --> 00:12:41,440
thought lynette was dead or alive

304
00:12:46,949 --> 00:12:44,240
however malone herself had formed the

305
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:46,959
opinion that lynette was dead

306
00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:49,600
following communications from the spirit

307
00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:50,480
world

308
00:12:54,069 --> 00:12:52,720
and so viewed the situation as a murder

309
00:12:56,629 --> 00:12:54,079
investigation

310
00:12:58,870 --> 00:12:56,639
council followed this thread with more

311
00:13:00,389 --> 00:12:58,880
questions about how malone gets her

312
00:13:03,590 --> 00:13:00,399
information

313
00:13:06,710 --> 00:13:03,600
quote i have clairvoyance so i can hear

314
00:13:08,069 --> 00:13:06,720
her speak to me end quote malone told

315
00:13:10,629 --> 00:13:08,079
the court

316
00:13:12,629 --> 00:13:10,639
quote when i tune into an item or a

317
00:13:15,509 --> 00:13:12,639
photograph it's like watching television

318
00:13:17,750 --> 00:13:15,519
i see snippets of her life end quote

319
00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:17,760
more information was gained via holding

320
00:13:24,150 --> 00:13:20,560
objects a watch and a bracelet that

321
00:13:26,230 --> 00:13:24,160
belong to the deceased and that at times

322
00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:26,240
she undergoes hypnosis to aid in her

323
00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:28,000
spirit communications

324
00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:30,560
malone told detective loon that she

325
00:13:33,750 --> 00:13:32,800
thought that lynette was buried at the

326
00:13:35,670 --> 00:13:33,760
house

327
00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:35,680
and described to him

328
00:13:39,910 --> 00:13:38,399
details such as the position of the body

329
00:13:42,069 --> 00:13:39,920
and the ground

330
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:42,079
now i'll just stop here quickly to say

331
00:13:46,629 --> 00:13:43,440
despite many

332
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:46,639
excavations in that house over the years

333
00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:48,720
the body of lynette dawson has simply

334
00:13:55,030 --> 00:13:51,120
not been found counsel asked malone if

335
00:13:57,509 --> 00:13:55,040
she was a quote forensic psychic and

336
00:14:00,790 --> 00:13:57,519
quote to which she answered no

337
00:14:03,350 --> 00:14:00,800
then she was asked if she was quote

338
00:14:04,949 --> 00:14:03,360
fair dinkum end quote

339
00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:04,959
and that's an australian slang term

340
00:14:09,829 --> 00:14:07,360
meaning are you for real

341
00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:09,839
malone said detective loon was skeptical

342
00:14:14,150 --> 00:14:12,240
but had an open mind quote you know

343
00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:14,160
there's a lot of skepticism about your

344
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:17,360
apparent powers and quote said council

345
00:14:20,949 --> 00:14:18,880
of course there is

346
00:14:23,189 --> 00:14:20,959
malone replied

347
00:14:25,670 --> 00:14:23,199
attention then moved to malone's visit

348
00:14:27,829 --> 00:14:25,680
to the house or rather area near the

349
00:14:29,829 --> 00:14:27,839
house in 2003

350
00:14:31,990 --> 00:14:29,839
with lynette's brother and sister

351
00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:32,000
detective loon was not available at the

352
00:14:35,350 --> 00:14:32,800
time

353
00:14:37,269 --> 00:14:35,360
she told the court she wanted to see if

354
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:37,279
what was there

355
00:14:40,870 --> 00:14:39,120
matched her visions

356
00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:40,880
she formed the view that lynette was

357
00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:42,320
buried quote

358
00:14:48,389 --> 00:14:46,160
near an area close to the big rock at

359
00:14:50,710 --> 00:14:48,399
the back of the house in the vicinity of

360
00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:50,720
a fire trail then quote

361
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:52,720
malone told council that psychic

362
00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:55,680
information is never 100 certain more

363
00:14:58,389 --> 00:14:56,560
like

364
00:15:00,230 --> 00:14:58,399
75 to 80

365
00:15:03,189 --> 00:15:00,240
to which council replied that malone

366
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:03,199
herself said she was 100 certain

367
00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:05,440
lynette's body was buried near the house

368
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:08,000
but a police search there in 2018 turned

369
00:15:12,470 --> 00:15:10,720
up nothing malone replied she was not

370
00:15:14,710 --> 00:15:12,480
part of that search

371
00:15:18,710 --> 00:15:14,720
council asked malone if she thought it

372
00:15:22,389 --> 00:15:18,720
was fine to appear on the studio 10

373
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:22,399
tv program to talk about the case

374
00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:25,040
malone replied that she wanted to set

375
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:27,040
the record straight after the broadcast

376
00:15:31,189 --> 00:15:29,279
of parts of her police interview on a

377
00:15:33,269 --> 00:15:31,199
podcast and that would have been the

378
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:33,279
teacher's pet she did not mention the

379
00:15:38,629 --> 00:15:35,920
podcast by name she was disappointed the

380
00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:38,639
audio was used in such a way

381
00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:40,880
counsel for the defense then concluded

382
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:42,480
his questions and counsel for the

383
00:15:46,069 --> 00:15:45,040
prosecution indicated he had no more

384
00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:46,079
questions

385
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:47,199
and then

386
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:48,480
it was over

387
00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:51,040
i noticed that later that night

388
00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:53,680
video of her leaving the downing center

389
00:15:57,590 --> 00:15:56,160
was used on all three commercial tv news

390
00:15:58,710 --> 00:15:57,600
presentations

391
00:16:00,870 --> 00:15:58,720
it was

392
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:00,880
fascinating for me to be in the court to

393
00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:03,440
hear questions put to someone who claims

394
00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:05,440
to have psychic powers i could

395
00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:07,920
anticipate some of her answers from many

396
00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:10,079
years of studying what psychics say and

397
00:16:14,069 --> 00:16:11,600
how they think

398
00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:14,079
to let justice take its course i will

399
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:16,480
leave my report at that apart from

400
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:18,959
saying that i was a witness to a bit of

401
00:16:23,749 --> 00:16:22,240
paranormal history in australia no

402
00:16:25,990 --> 00:16:23,759
matter the outcome

403
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:26,000
and the second part of this report

404
00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:28,880
is by nicholas cowdery

405
00:16:33,350 --> 00:16:31,360
the legal implications when i was

406
00:16:37,269 --> 00:16:33,360
director of public prosecutions for new

407
00:16:40,710 --> 00:16:37,279
south wales i retired in 2011

408
00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:40,720
the dawson case came to me for decision

409
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:43,120
on the evidence then available i

410
00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:44,880
declined to prosecute

411
00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:48,000
i do not now have any real recollection

412
00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:50,320
of the evidence that was presented for

413
00:16:56,629 --> 00:16:53,360
consideration and i don't know if it

414
00:16:58,230 --> 00:16:56,639
included any statement from a quote

415
00:17:00,389 --> 00:16:58,240
psychic medium

416
00:17:02,550 --> 00:17:00,399
i have not attended the present

417
00:17:04,870 --> 00:17:02,560
proceedings against christopher dawson

418
00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:04,880
and i have not seen any record of those

419
00:17:09,829 --> 00:17:07,520
proceedings apart from brief media

420
00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:09,839
reports and now richard's piece

421
00:17:14,949 --> 00:17:12,480
it is true that in the course of

422
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:14,959
investigations police do sometimes

423
00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:16,720
entertain the views of psychics and

424
00:17:22,870 --> 00:17:20,480
other magic people i suppose they do so

425
00:17:26,230 --> 00:17:22,880
on the basis that quote anything is

426
00:17:28,630 --> 00:17:26,240
worth a try end quote and quote

427
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:28,640
you never know something might turn up

428
00:17:34,070 --> 00:17:32,000
end quote in the 1960s psychics were

429
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:34,080
crawling all over the disappearance of

430
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:36,320
the beaumont children in adelaide and

431
00:17:41,029 --> 00:17:38,720
there have been other high profile

432
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:41,039
matters involving them maybe the high

433
00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:42,720
profile is a clue

434
00:17:47,669 --> 00:17:45,520
to why they stick their heads up and why

435
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:47,679
the police tolerate them but we don't

436
00:17:52,789 --> 00:17:50,400
hear much about them in the thousands of

437
00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:52,799
ordinary cases they're contested but

438
00:17:57,510 --> 00:17:54,960
what might be done in the course of an

439
00:18:00,710 --> 00:17:57,520
investigation can be quite different

440
00:18:02,470 --> 00:18:00,720
from what should be done in the conduct

441
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:02,480
of a prosecution

442
00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:04,559
a prosecutor is given a body of evidence

443
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:06,799
to work with evidence is the record or

444
00:18:12,390 --> 00:18:09,120
recitation of facts from which

445
00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:12,400
inferences and findings may be made i

446
00:18:18,549 --> 00:18:15,280
cannot for the life of me see how any

447
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:18,559
account by a psychic of what she has

448
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:21,360
allegedly psychically defined

449
00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:23,760
could be admissible evidence personal

450
00:18:30,870 --> 00:18:26,880
testimony must be of what the witness

451
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:30,880
saw heard felt did had done to her etc

452
00:18:34,549 --> 00:18:31,679
and

453
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:34,559
is relevant to the determination of

454
00:18:38,310 --> 00:18:37,200
issues in the case it is relevant if it

455
00:18:41,350 --> 00:18:38,320
could

456
00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:41,360
rationally affect directly or indirectly

457
00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:43,679
the assessment of the probability of the

458
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:46,640
existence of a fact in issue in the

459
00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:49,840
proceeding as provided in the evidence

460
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:52,480
act there is no scope for including in

461
00:18:57,029 --> 00:18:54,240
that observations

462
00:19:00,549 --> 00:18:57,039
that are said to be psychically based

463
00:19:03,909 --> 00:19:00,559
and not based on our physical senses or

464
00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:03,919
objectively observable phenomena

465
00:19:09,029 --> 00:19:07,200
opinions are expressly excluded from

466
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:09,039
evidence by law

467
00:19:12,549 --> 00:19:11,600
the main exception to that is the expert

468
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:12,559
opinion

469
00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:14,320
evidence regime

470
00:19:19,430 --> 00:19:17,200
any attempt to qualify a psychic as an

471
00:19:22,150 --> 00:19:19,440
expert and therefore able to express an

472
00:19:25,029 --> 00:19:22,160
opinion about facts in issue would be

473
00:19:27,270 --> 00:19:25,039
doomed to failure i suppose for that

474
00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:27,280
reason is never attempted

475
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:29,360
richard's description of events indicate

476
00:19:34,710 --> 00:19:31,600
that ms malone's appearance may have

477
00:19:36,870 --> 00:19:34,720
resulted from a procedure sometimes

478
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:36,880
adopted by the prosecution in order to

479
00:19:42,870 --> 00:19:40,160
be fair to the defense the prosecution

480
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:42,880
did not rely on her evidence so it seems

481
00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:45,520
that she was called as a witness being

482
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:48,000
made available by the prosecution hence

483
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:50,000
the brief qualifying questions from the

484
00:19:54,150 --> 00:19:51,440
prosecutor

485
00:19:57,350 --> 00:19:54,160
either at the express request of the

486
00:19:59,669 --> 00:19:57,360
defense or is part of the duty to

487
00:20:02,149 --> 00:19:59,679
present evidence that although not

488
00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:02,159
relied upon might be considered relevant

489
00:20:07,029 --> 00:20:04,400
in some way especially considering the

490
00:20:10,149 --> 00:20:07,039
wide range of inadmissible and

491
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:10,159
prejudicial material that was included

492
00:20:16,390 --> 00:20:13,520
in the teacher's podcast about this case

493
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:16,400
in summary i cannot see any reason why

494
00:20:19,190 --> 00:20:18,320
the prosecution would call such a

495
00:20:21,190 --> 00:20:19,200
witness

496
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:21,200
and it did not include her as part of

497
00:20:24,950 --> 00:20:23,600
the case her evidence was inadmissible

498
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:24,960
in my view

499
00:20:29,669 --> 00:20:27,360
the defense seems to have had her raised

500
00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:29,679
in the proceedings in order to dismiss

501
00:20:34,630 --> 00:20:32,080
her going by richard's description of

502
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:34,640
her questioning or maybe and i am

503
00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:37,120
speculating her conduct in the case was

504
00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:39,280
relevant to explaining the words or

505
00:20:42,950 --> 00:20:41,280
actions of other witnesses and was

506
00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:42,960
useful for that reason either

507
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:45,520
substandardly or by affecting their

508
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:46,480
credit

509
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:48,480
the magistrate really should have

510
00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:50,960
rejected the evidence as inadmissible

511
00:20:54,310 --> 00:20:53,120
unless the defense demonstrated its

512
00:20:56,310 --> 00:20:54,320
relevance

513
00:20:58,789 --> 00:20:56,320
it will be interesting to see if either

514
00:21:00,230 --> 00:20:58,799
party calls ms malone in the supreme

515
00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:00,240
court trial

516
00:21:04,950 --> 00:21:02,480
and i'll just say that never happened

517
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:04,960
footnote it has not always been possible

518
00:21:08,789 --> 00:21:06,640
to keep psychic influences out of

519
00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:08,799
criminal trials entirely

520
00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:11,440
in 1994 in england harry and nicola

521
00:21:15,830 --> 00:21:14,000
fuller were shot dead in their home

522
00:21:17,590 --> 00:21:15,840
insurance broker stephen young was

523
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:17,600
convicted of their murders in a

524
00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:20,400
five-week jury trial in brighton a month

525
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:23,360
later the now defunct news of the world

526
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:25,760
reported on its front page that four

527
00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:29,200
jurors while confined overnight had used

528
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:31,520
a homemade ouija board to communicate

529
00:21:35,909 --> 00:21:34,880
with the deceased and asked who had

530
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:35,919
killed them

531
00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:37,200
obvious

532
00:21:40,710 --> 00:21:39,200
the glass they were pushing around the

533
00:21:42,870 --> 00:21:40,720
board spelled out

534
00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:42,880
stephen young

535
00:21:47,110 --> 00:21:46,080
done it when asked how it spelled out

536
00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:47,120
shot

537
00:21:52,149 --> 00:21:49,520
as they were discussing what to do

538
00:21:53,029 --> 00:21:52,159
the clever glass spelt out

539
00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:53,039
vote

540
00:21:58,149 --> 00:21:55,360
guilty tomorrow

541
00:22:00,070 --> 00:21:58,159
and yes the retrial was ordered at which

542
00:22:01,830 --> 00:22:00,080
after another five-week trial stephen

543
00:22:03,029 --> 00:22:01,840
young was convicted

544
00:22:05,909 --> 00:22:03,039
again

545
00:22:07,669 --> 00:22:05,919
presumably without the aid of a ouija

546
00:22:11,390 --> 00:22:07,679
board

547
00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:11,400
and that was again by nicholas cowdery

548
00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:12,720
[Music]

549
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:14,320
so there we are

550
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:16,000
and yet

551
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:17,520
people will still

552
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:19,600
trumpet the fact that they are police

553
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:21,280
psychics and the police call on them and

554
00:22:25,270 --> 00:22:23,120
they help solve crimes

555
00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:25,280
i don't know what else we can do

556
00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:26,720
to

557
00:22:33,110 --> 00:22:31,280
because a hungry media will always jump

558
00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:33,120
on stories like that

559
00:22:43,669 --> 00:22:41,350
you can read my original report in the

560
00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:43,679
pages of the skeptic magazine

561
00:22:49,270 --> 00:22:46,400
go to skeptics.com.u

562
00:22:50,070 --> 00:22:49,280
look for the magazine volume 40 number

563
00:22:51,909 --> 00:22:50,080
one

564
00:22:55,110 --> 00:22:51,919
from march 2020

565
00:23:01,970 --> 00:22:55,120
and you'll find that report on

566
00:23:01,980 --> 00:23:14,149
[Music]

567
00:23:17,990 --> 00:23:15,590
hey adrian

568
00:23:20,149 --> 00:23:18,000
hi susan out for some shopping eh yep

569
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:20,159
i'm stocking up on this imitation maple

570
00:23:24,549 --> 00:23:22,960
syrup from australia imitation

571
00:23:27,190 --> 00:23:24,559
imitation

572
00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:27,200
no no no no you need to buy the real

573
00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:29,200
thing from canada

574
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:31,200
but i saw the tv commercial and it said

575
00:23:35,110 --> 00:23:33,520
that noted pancake eating expert richard

576
00:23:37,029 --> 00:23:35,120
saunders says it's the best maple syrup

577
00:23:39,270 --> 00:23:37,039
money can buy and sixty percent of

578
00:23:42,149 --> 00:23:39,280
people preferred in a blind taste test

579
00:23:44,870 --> 00:23:42,159
everyone knows it's the best oh come on

580
00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:44,880
susan you know better than that

581
00:23:51,269 --> 00:23:48,080
that's the argument from authority it is

582
00:23:52,950 --> 00:23:51,279
or is it the argument from popularity

583
00:23:54,789 --> 00:23:52,960
hmm

584
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:54,799
it might be another logical fallacy i'm

585
00:24:02,010 --> 00:23:57,120
not sure really if only we had a way of

586
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:04,549
[Music]

587
00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:08,080
hello everyone oh my it's the skeptical

588
00:24:12,789 --> 00:24:10,320
fairy godmother angel from the internet

589
00:24:15,909 --> 00:24:12,799
yes that's right but how did you know

590
00:24:17,190 --> 00:24:15,919
who i am i listened to the skeptic zone

591
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:17,200
podcast

592
00:24:21,190 --> 00:24:19,600
also didn't you used to be the tooth

593
00:24:22,630 --> 00:24:21,200
fairy oh

594
00:24:25,029 --> 00:24:22,640
yes

595
00:24:28,149 --> 00:24:25,039
i remember you

596
00:24:31,510 --> 00:24:28,159
i'll never forget your left upper

597
00:24:32,710 --> 00:24:31,520
lateral incisor would you like it back

598
00:24:34,149 --> 00:24:32,720
no

599
00:24:36,149 --> 00:24:34,159
it's okay

600
00:24:37,750 --> 00:24:36,159
you keep it hey skeptical fairy

601
00:24:40,230 --> 00:24:37,760
godmother angel what are you doing here

602
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:40,240
in the supermarket i've come to tell you

603
00:24:45,830 --> 00:24:42,960
that you can find out about 40 different

604
00:24:47,909 --> 00:24:45,840
logical fallacies on youtube in one

605
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:47,919
handy location

606
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:49,919
listen to each one to hear an

607
00:24:55,909 --> 00:24:52,559
explanation and examples of how they

608
00:24:55,919 --> 00:24:59,110
just go to

609
00:25:03,350 --> 00:25:00,390
slash tinyurl.com

610
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:03,360
zone and you'll find all the logical

611
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:06,000
fallacies with michelle bickers mark

612
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:08,400
with handy time codes to get to the

613
00:25:15,390 --> 00:25:10,720
exact one you want who is michelle

614
00:25:17,269 --> 00:25:15,400
biggesmar oh just a friend of mine

615
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:17,279
tinyurl.com

616
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:18,799
logicalzone

617
00:25:21,590 --> 00:25:20,720
thank you skeptical fairy godmother

618
00:25:23,590 --> 00:25:21,600
angel

619
00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:23,600
i guess you'll disappear in a puff of

620
00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:25,760
smoke and thunder now eh

621
00:25:29,669 --> 00:25:26,799
um

622
00:25:30,710 --> 00:25:29,679
not quite yet i have a bit of shopping

623
00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:30,720
to do

624
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:31,840
susan

625
00:25:35,909 --> 00:25:33,200
yes

626
00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:35,919
where do i find the australian maple

627
00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:37,679
syrup hmm

628
00:25:44,070 --> 00:25:40,480
what no no no come with me so-called

629
00:25:55,610 --> 00:25:44,080
skeptical fairy this is real maple syrup

630
00:25:55,620 --> 00:25:58,950
[Music]

631
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:00,310
and now

632
00:26:05,110 --> 00:26:02,410
a reading from the book of tim

633
00:26:07,940 --> 00:26:05,120
[Music]

634
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:07,950
with tim mendham

635
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:15,190
hi my name is tim mendenham i'm the

636
00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:17,600
executive officer of australian skeptics

637
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:19,840
and also the editor of our magazine the

638
00:26:22,950 --> 00:26:20,960
skeptic

639
00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:22,960
and today i will be continuing with an

640
00:26:27,590 --> 00:26:24,400
article that we began

641
00:26:29,590 --> 00:26:27,600
last issue on unicorns an article called

642
00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:29,600
on the horn of a dilemma

643
00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:32,720
this was published in the march 2015

644
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:34,640
edition of the magazine

645
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:38,880
and which is volume 35 number one

646
00:26:43,269 --> 00:26:40,320
and it was originally published back in

647
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:43,279
1994 written by anthony wheeler from

648
00:26:46,070 --> 00:26:44,640
queensland

649
00:26:47,510 --> 00:26:46,080
and today we are continuing about

650
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:47,520
unicorns and looking at the personal

651
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:49,279
experience of travellers

652
00:26:54,230 --> 00:26:53,200
and elaboration on who they are or what

653
00:27:00,470 --> 00:26:54,240
they work

654
00:27:04,549 --> 00:27:02,070
now the early descriptions of the indian

655
00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:04,559
rhinoceros some by eyewitnesses and

656
00:27:08,549 --> 00:27:07,120
others based on hearsay bolstered belief

657
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:08,559
in the unicorn

658
00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:10,000
one of the best and most accurate is

659
00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:12,640
from pliny the elder who says the asean

660
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:14,960
indians hunt an exceedingly wild beast

661
00:27:18,710 --> 00:27:16,480
called monocerous

662
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:18,720
which has a stag's head an elephant's

663
00:27:22,389 --> 00:27:20,880
feet and a boar's tail

664
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:22,399
the rest of the body is like that of a

665
00:27:27,190 --> 00:27:25,600
horse it makes a deep lowing noise and

666
00:27:29,269 --> 00:27:27,200
one black horn

667
00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:29,279
two cubits long projects from the middle

668
00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:31,600
of the forehead this animal they say

669
00:27:38,230 --> 00:27:34,880
cannot be taken alive and marco polo the

670
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,240
explorer of asia wrote in 1298 there are

671
00:27:42,310 --> 00:27:40,240
wild elephants in the country and

672
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:42,320
numerous unicorns which are very nearly

673
00:27:45,029 --> 00:27:43,760
as big

674
00:27:48,149 --> 00:27:45,039
marco's unicorn was actually the

675
00:27:49,830 --> 00:27:48,159
rhinoceros an animal new to europeans

676
00:27:51,830 --> 00:27:49,840
the single horned rhinoceros certainly

677
00:27:54,149 --> 00:27:51,840
fit this usual description of the

678
00:27:55,990 --> 00:27:54,159
unicorn as far as power goes and the

679
00:27:57,590 --> 00:27:56,000
rhinoceros is the only animal with a

680
00:27:59,110 --> 00:27:57,600
central horn

681
00:28:02,070 --> 00:27:59,120
now of course the winosaurus horn is

682
00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:02,080
nowhere near as long as a meter or two

683
00:28:05,750 --> 00:28:04,159
and the color is wrong in fact the

684
00:28:08,389 --> 00:28:05,760
urinosures was a great disappointment

685
00:28:10,950 --> 00:28:08,399
for unicorn hunters being greatly ugly

686
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:10,960
and unattractive in its habits

687
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:13,760
again from marco polo they delight in

688
00:28:18,789 --> 00:28:16,399
living in maya and mud it is a hideous

689
00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:18,799
beast to look at in no way like what we

690
00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:20,640
think and say in our countries namely a

691
00:28:24,149 --> 00:28:22,720
beast that lets itself be taken in the

692
00:28:26,710 --> 00:28:24,159
lap of a virgin

693
00:28:28,830 --> 00:28:26,720
indeed i assure you that it is quite the

694
00:28:31,510 --> 00:28:28,840
opposite of what we say it

695
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:31,520
is similar stories from many travelers

696
00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:34,720
were compiled by charles gould into his

697
00:28:39,350 --> 00:28:37,840
mythical monsters from 1886. the number

698
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:39,360
of accounts of unicorns suggest that

699
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:41,360
maybe the unicorn is real but the

700
00:28:45,269 --> 00:28:43,279
discrepancies between these accounts

701
00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:45,279
argue that they could not be based on

702
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:47,600
the same common animal

703
00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:49,120
gould suggested that possibly the

704
00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:52,000
animals described were recently extinct

705
00:28:55,750 --> 00:28:53,440
with the descriptions having been

706
00:28:57,590 --> 00:28:55,760
corrupted by poor memories and errors in

707
00:28:59,350 --> 00:28:57,600
their retelling

708
00:29:02,789 --> 00:28:59,360
another possibility offered was that the

709
00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:02,799
unicorns had been produced by crosses or

710
00:29:08,389 --> 00:29:05,520
hybrids between horses and deer

711
00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:08,399
producing the variety and thirdly gould

712
00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:10,480
acknowledged the contribution of quote

713
00:29:16,549 --> 00:29:13,120
embroidery of fancy designed to enrich

714
00:29:18,149 --> 00:29:16,559
and adorn an article as deemed rare

715
00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:18,159
and valuable

716
00:29:21,830 --> 00:29:20,000
now let's look at the new testament

717
00:29:23,909 --> 00:29:21,840
authority in this the authority of the

718
00:29:26,870 --> 00:29:23,919
christian bible was enough to inspire

719
00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:26,880
belief in the unicorn as a real animal

720
00:29:30,789 --> 00:29:28,799
this belief was strengthened in the

721
00:29:33,110 --> 00:29:30,799
middle ages by the european christian

722
00:29:35,669 --> 00:29:33,120
tradition of the best series

723
00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:35,679
natural histories written to glorify god

724
00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:37,760
to reveal his purpose in his created

725
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:38,880
animals

726
00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:41,360
the best eries portray the unicorn as

727
00:29:46,149 --> 00:29:43,840
small and very fleet with a great

728
00:29:47,590 --> 00:29:46,159
shyness of man and fascination with the

729
00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:47,600
beauty and love

730
00:29:51,430 --> 00:29:49,520
of maidens

731
00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:51,440
we also have the symbolic representation

732
00:29:55,990 --> 00:29:53,760
of jesus christ as the unicorn many

733
00:29:58,710 --> 00:29:56,000
times the scene of a unicorn

734
00:30:01,350 --> 00:29:58,720
jesus christ small humble and with a

735
00:30:03,190 --> 00:30:01,360
single horn the unity of god resting his

736
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:03,200
head the incarnation in the lap of a

737
00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:06,000
virgin mary and about to be killed the

738
00:30:09,669 --> 00:30:08,399
passion by a hunter the holy ghost was

739
00:30:11,830 --> 00:30:09,679
exploited

740
00:30:14,310 --> 00:30:11,840
alternatively this pretty picture is an

741
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:14,320
allegory for sex to some

742
00:30:19,269 --> 00:30:16,320
it says willie lay

743
00:30:20,789 --> 00:30:19,279
after all what is white dark at the base

744
00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:20,799
and tipped with red

745
00:30:23,830 --> 00:30:22,720
and loses its power in the lap of a

746
00:30:25,909 --> 00:30:23,840
virgin

747
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:25,919
with such biblical and church authority

748
00:30:29,990 --> 00:30:27,760
supporting the personal experience of

749
00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:30,000
travellers anecdotes the unicorn was

750
00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:31,679
accepted as real throughout the middle

751
00:30:35,909 --> 00:30:32,960
ages

752
00:30:37,029 --> 00:30:35,919
edward topsail's 16th century histories

753
00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:37,039
of beasts

754
00:30:41,190 --> 00:30:38,880
bases its argument for the existence of

755
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:41,200
unicorns on a question from the bible

756
00:30:46,070 --> 00:30:44,000
and the literal truth of the bible quote

757
00:30:48,870 --> 00:30:46,080
likewise in many other places of

758
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:48,880
scripture you will have to produce

759
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:50,640
slander or misrepresent

760
00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:53,679
god himself if there is no unicorn in

761
00:30:56,630 --> 00:30:54,960
the world

762
00:30:59,669 --> 00:30:56,640
also popular

763
00:31:01,029 --> 00:30:59,679
from 3000 bce to the present day has

764
00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:01,039
been the motif

765
00:31:05,909 --> 00:31:04,080
of a lion and a unicorn fighting this

766
00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:05,919
has been explained as representing the

767
00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:08,640
overthrow of an older matriarchal moon

768
00:31:13,669 --> 00:31:11,200
worshiping society the unicorn by a

769
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:13,679
patriarchal sun worshiping society the

770
00:31:17,190 --> 00:31:14,799
lion

771
00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:17,200
or alternatively the succession of

772
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:19,679
spring with the vernal equinox in the

773
00:31:24,549 --> 00:31:22,159
zodiacal sign of taurus

774
00:31:25,669 --> 00:31:24,559
by summer with the summer solstice in

775
00:31:27,750 --> 00:31:25,679
leo

776
00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:27,760
the variety of shapes of the unicorns in

777
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:29,679
these illustrations as though bulls

778
00:31:34,070 --> 00:31:32,000
antelopes and goats had been the models

779
00:31:36,310 --> 00:31:34,080
for different artists suggest the lack

780
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:36,320
of real unicorns on which to base the

781
00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:38,399
artwork or even as the basis for a

782
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:41,039
consensus as to what animal a unicorn

783
00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:42,720
resembles most

784
00:31:47,029 --> 00:31:44,640
british knights returning from the

785
00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:47,039
crusades brought back tales of sightings

786
00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:49,440
of wild antelopes native to the middle

787
00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:51,600
east these antelopes have their paired

788
00:31:56,070 --> 00:31:53,840
horns set so close together that they

789
00:31:57,269 --> 00:31:56,080
appear as a single horn when seen from

790
00:31:59,269 --> 00:31:57,279
the side

791
00:32:00,950 --> 00:31:59,279
supported by the authority of the bible

792
00:32:02,870 --> 00:32:00,960
these crude sketches and memories of

793
00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:02,880
glimpse sightings became part of british

794
00:32:07,830 --> 00:32:05,440
heraldry the unicorn features on the

795
00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:07,840
crest badges of the scottish clans of

796
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:10,480
cunningham stewart of appen ramsey and

797
00:32:14,230 --> 00:32:12,640
oliphant and melville

798
00:32:15,750 --> 00:32:14,240
and as a supporter for the arms of the

799
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:15,760
city of bristol

800
00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:17,840
when scotland was united with england

801
00:32:21,669 --> 00:32:20,080
and wales in 1603

802
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:21,679
one of the two unicorns from the

803
00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:24,240
scottish royal arms joined the english

804
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:25,120
line

805
00:32:29,750 --> 00:32:27,760
displacing the welsh dragon on the new

806
00:32:32,389 --> 00:32:29,760
british coat of arms and is still there

807
00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:32,399
today complete with collar and chain

808
00:32:36,070 --> 00:32:34,000
tethering the unicorn

809
00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:36,080
symbolism for england's domination of

810
00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:37,600
scotland

811
00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:39,440
you can still see these arms complete

812
00:32:43,190 --> 00:32:41,679
with lion and chained unicorn on older

813
00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:43,200
government buildings in australian

814
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:44,720
cities

815
00:32:49,350 --> 00:32:47,120
this parochial english nationalism

816
00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:49,360
persists in the nursery rhyme

817
00:32:53,590 --> 00:32:51,120
the lion and the unicorn were fighting

818
00:32:58,370 --> 00:32:53,600
for the crown the lion beat the unicorn

819
00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:01,190
[Music]

820
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:02,880
now that's the end of part two of this

821
00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:04,559
article on unicorns

822
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:07,120
part three will continue next episode of

823
00:33:12,070 --> 00:33:09,360
the skeptic zone and we'll look at the

824
00:33:14,870 --> 00:33:12,080
supposed medical benefits of unicorn

825
00:33:15,909 --> 00:33:14,880
horns etc and the science testing of

826
00:33:17,590 --> 00:33:15,919
claims

827
00:33:20,389 --> 00:33:17,600
and that will bring us to an end of this

828
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:20,399
article that first appeared in 1994 in

829
00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:22,720
the skeptic magazine and was reprinted

830
00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:27,120
in march 2015 which is volume 35 number

831
00:33:31,110 --> 00:33:29,360
one and you can get the whole issue in

832
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:31,120
the whole article

833
00:33:35,789 --> 00:33:33,440
of that particular magazine

834
00:33:37,669 --> 00:33:35,799
on our website

835
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:37,679
www.skeptics.com.edu to download for

836
00:33:39,750 --> 00:33:38,480
free

837
00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:39,760
and while you're there you might as well

838
00:33:44,420 --> 00:33:41,600
subscribe as well then you won't have to

839
00:33:59,110 --> 00:33:44,430
wait

840
00:34:01,750 --> 00:33:59,120
[Music]

841
00:34:05,350 --> 00:34:01,760
the australian skeptic's annual national

842
00:34:07,669 --> 00:34:05,360
convention skepticon 2022 will be held

843
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:07,679
on december 3rd through 4th the first

844
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:09,679
weekend of december but if you want to

845
00:34:13,990 --> 00:34:11,760
get cheaper tickets then you need to be

846
00:34:16,149 --> 00:34:14,000
quick smart as the lower early bird

847
00:34:18,629 --> 00:34:16,159
prices will be ending within hours so

848
00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:18,639
get going i got mine go to the ticket

849
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:21,839
sales page at skepticon.org.au

850
00:34:27,270 --> 00:34:24,800
to choose full in-person one day in

851
00:34:29,349 --> 00:34:27,280
person or streaming options

852
00:34:29,709 --> 00:34:29,359
of course i had to choose the streaming

853
00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:29,719
option

854
00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:32,800
[Music]

855
00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:34,800
the event will be held at the national

856
00:34:39,909 --> 00:34:37,440
library of australia the theme is

857
00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:39,919
skepticism in a changed world and the

858
00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:41,839
lineup of speakers includes claire

859
00:34:46,710 --> 00:34:44,399
klingenberg president of the european

860
00:34:49,829 --> 00:34:46,720
council of skeptical organizations the

861
00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:49,839
hosts of european skeptics podcast and

862
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:51,919
live stream talks by skeptic's guide to

863
00:34:59,750 --> 00:34:54,879
the universe host dr steven novella and

864
00:35:04,230 --> 00:35:01,910
there is also a wide variety of domestic

865
00:35:06,870 --> 00:35:04,240
speakers including major general mike

866
00:35:08,390 --> 00:35:06,880
ryan retired who will be speaking on

867
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:08,400
science fiction and security

868
00:35:13,270 --> 00:35:09,680
professionals

869
00:35:15,589 --> 00:35:13,280
author david dufty on radio girl a.c.t

870
00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:15,599
academy of sports psychologist christine

871
00:35:20,630 --> 00:35:18,160
dunn on superstitions in sport

872
00:35:23,829 --> 00:35:20,640
controversial author clive hamilton on

873
00:35:25,670 --> 00:35:23,839
being censored and many more scientific

874
00:35:27,870 --> 00:35:25,680
and skeptical topics

875
00:35:34,610 --> 00:35:27,880
for full details visit

876
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:47,510
[Music]

877
00:35:53,349 --> 00:35:50,160
now here's a report that appeared on the

878
00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:53,359
website of news.com.eu

879
00:35:58,550 --> 00:35:56,400
on wednesday the 31st of august

880
00:36:01,589 --> 00:35:58,560
australian anti-vaxxers who sued state

881
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:01,599
and federal governments forced to pay

882
00:36:06,390 --> 00:36:03,520
two hundred and fourteen thousand and

883
00:36:08,069 --> 00:36:06,400
twenty three dollars in legal costs

884
00:36:10,470 --> 00:36:08,079
and this is a story

885
00:36:11,349 --> 00:36:10,480
or part of a story i will read by rowan

886
00:36:13,750 --> 00:36:11,359
smith

887
00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:13,760
anti-vaxxers including a 19 year old who

888
00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:17,440
claimed a quote vaccine injury and quote

889
00:36:22,630 --> 00:36:19,920
have been slugged with an eye-watering

890
00:36:24,990 --> 00:36:22,640
legal bill after their case was tossed

891
00:36:28,950 --> 00:36:25,000
out

892
00:36:31,349 --> 00:36:28,960
[Music]

893
00:36:32,870 --> 00:36:31,359
a group of australian anti-vaxxers who

894
00:36:36,150 --> 00:36:32,880
tried to sue state and federal

895
00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:36,160
governments citing fears over quote

896
00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:39,520
a new world order and quote have been

897
00:36:47,109 --> 00:36:44,160
slugged with 214 023 in legal costs

898
00:36:49,510 --> 00:36:47,119
after their case was thrown out of court

899
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:49,520
nine applicants took the fight to the

900
00:36:54,150 --> 00:36:51,520
federal court of australia in october

901
00:36:56,870 --> 00:36:54,160
last year claiming that lockdowns and

902
00:36:59,349 --> 00:36:56,880
vaccine mandates were quote

903
00:37:02,550 --> 00:36:59,359
being implemented or undertaken in the

904
00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:02,560
context of a new world order end quote

905
00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:03,520
and

906
00:37:09,990 --> 00:37:06,960
quote constituted a breach of the

907
00:37:12,230 --> 00:37:10,000
nurenberg code end quote

908
00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:12,240
the new world order

909
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:14,480
references a conspiracy theory

910
00:37:20,589 --> 00:37:17,280
popularized by far-right conspiracist

911
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:20,599
cuenon which asserts that a secret

912
00:37:25,190 --> 00:37:22,720
totalitarian world government is

913
00:37:27,910 --> 00:37:25,200
emerging in their statement of claim the

914
00:37:30,069 --> 00:37:27,920
group demanded that then prime minister

915
00:37:32,550 --> 00:37:30,079
scott morrison quote

916
00:37:34,710 --> 00:37:32,560
together with each of the premiers and

917
00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:34,720
chief ministers of the states and

918
00:37:37,829 --> 00:37:36,480
territories of australia

919
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:37,839
i mean quote

920
00:37:43,349 --> 00:37:40,880
meet at the entrance to the embassy of

921
00:37:44,710 --> 00:37:43,359
the republic of poland

922
00:37:47,430 --> 00:37:44,720
in canberra

923
00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:47,440
and deliver an apology

924
00:37:52,150 --> 00:37:50,160
poland

925
00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:52,160
documents show the draft apology

926
00:37:56,710 --> 00:37:54,320
included language to the effect that the

927
00:37:59,030 --> 00:37:56,720
prime minister scott morrison on behalf

928
00:38:00,230 --> 00:37:59,040
of himself and the premiers and chief

929
00:38:02,710 --> 00:38:00,240
ministers

930
00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:02,720
acknowledged responsibility for putting

931
00:38:07,950 --> 00:38:04,640
australia in danger

932
00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:07,960
falling into a state of lawlessness and

933
00:38:12,230 --> 00:38:10,160
totalitarian rule

934
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:12,240
justice debra mortimer struck out the

935
00:38:16,390 --> 00:38:14,400
case against the commonwealth victorian

936
00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:16,400
new south wales queensland northern

937
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:18,560
territory western australia

938
00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:21,119
and tasmanian governments in july

939
00:38:26,630 --> 00:38:24,960
and an order on monday awarded costs to

940
00:38:29,109 --> 00:38:26,640
each government

941
00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:29,119
quote the allegations do not justify a

942
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:32,400
trial end quote she said the

943
00:38:35,589 --> 00:38:34,560
commonwealth and victorian governments

944
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:35,599
receive

945
00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:37,920
fifty thousand dollars in costs new

946
00:38:41,589 --> 00:38:39,760
south wales receives thirty nine

947
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:41,599
thousand and twenty three dollars

948
00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:43,680
while western australia queensland and

949
00:38:47,750 --> 00:38:45,599
the northern territory governments

950
00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:47,760
receive twenty thousand dollars each and

951
00:38:51,109 --> 00:38:49,839
tasmania receives fifteen thousand

952
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:51,119
dollars

953
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:53,040
the story goes on to talk about one of

954
00:38:57,750 --> 00:38:53,920
the

955
00:39:00,630 --> 00:38:57,760
people involved a teenager

956
00:39:02,630 --> 00:39:00,640
and then it says

957
00:39:05,430 --> 00:39:02,640
new south wales health said it does not

958
00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:05,440
discuss individual cases but urge people

959
00:39:09,270 --> 00:39:07,440
to use quote trusted and credible

960
00:39:11,510 --> 00:39:09,280
sources of information

961
00:39:13,030 --> 00:39:11,520
quote we continue to encourage everyone

962
00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:13,040
to get vaccinated and quote a

963
00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:14,720
spokesperson said

964
00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:16,640
quote the covet vaccines available in

965
00:39:21,030 --> 00:39:18,560
australia are safe and very effective at

966
00:39:21,990 --> 00:39:21,040
reducing the risk of serious illness and

967
00:39:24,150 --> 00:39:22,000
death

968
00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:24,160
please access covert 19 health advice

969
00:39:27,750 --> 00:39:25,920
and information from the new south wales

970
00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:27,760
health and the australian government end

971
00:39:30,710 --> 00:39:29,040
quote

972
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:30,720
of course one of the things this story

973
00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:32,960
does remind us about

974
00:39:38,150 --> 00:39:36,000
is the dangers or the folly

975
00:39:39,910 --> 00:39:38,160
of believing conspiracy theories and

976
00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:39,920
getting swept away in conspiracy

977
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:42,480
theories they can have very very bad

978
00:39:47,430 --> 00:39:45,280
results but in this case of course for

979
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:47,440
the people involved it's a bad result

980
00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:50,240
of being slugged with an enormous

981
00:39:54,390 --> 00:39:52,640
legal bill

982
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:54,400
and doubtless the people involved in

983
00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:56,560
this or many at least would be firm

984
00:39:59,510 --> 00:39:57,680
believers

985
00:40:00,160 --> 00:39:59,520
in the conspiracy theories that they

986
00:40:02,230 --> 00:40:00,170
were told

987
00:40:04,710 --> 00:40:02,240
[Music]

988
00:40:07,589 --> 00:40:04,720
i will link to that story where there is

989
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:07,599
more information to read in this week's

990
00:40:11,970 --> 00:40:23,670
[Music]

991
00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:25,589
g'day this is dr karl karl kruschmsky

992
00:40:29,349 --> 00:40:26,960
proud to be a skeptic and you can find

993
00:40:34,260 --> 00:40:29,359
out more about me at drcarl.com and get

994
00:40:34,270 --> 00:40:51,750
[Music]

995
00:40:55,270 --> 00:40:53,910
now it's time once again to go back to

996
00:40:58,390 --> 00:40:55,280
those pages at trove at

997
00:41:01,670 --> 00:41:00,069
the online resource from the australian

998
00:41:04,630 --> 00:41:01,680
government and the national library of

999
00:41:07,270 --> 00:41:04,640
australia full of digitized newspapers

1000
00:41:08,870 --> 00:41:07,280
mostly and of course magazines and many

1001
00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:08,880
other publications

1002
00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:12,480
going back many decades into centuries

1003
00:41:15,589 --> 00:41:14,079
and what an interesting thing it is to

1004
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:15,599
run to trove

1005
00:41:20,230 --> 00:41:19,040
type in any word in the search box

1006
00:41:22,230 --> 00:41:20,240
and you'll never know what you're going

1007
00:41:24,710 --> 00:41:22,240
to get this week i thought i would type

1008
00:41:27,990 --> 00:41:24,720
in the word zodiac

1009
00:41:32,460 --> 00:41:28,000
which hardly surprising returns many

1010
00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:32,470
uh results dealing with astrology

1011
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:35,359
[Music]

1012
00:41:42,069 --> 00:41:39,280
yes astrology and the zodiac signs

1013
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:42,079
and evergreen of skepticism

1014
00:41:47,109 --> 00:41:44,800
in fact even today if you ask people

1015
00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:47,119
around the world i would expect if they

1016
00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:49,200
know what their zodiac sign is or their

1017
00:41:53,910 --> 00:41:51,520
star sign they probably know

1018
00:41:55,750 --> 00:41:53,920
although i think if i'm not incorrect in

1019
00:41:57,510 --> 00:41:55,760
some parts of the world

1020
00:41:59,430 --> 00:41:57,520
people tend to

1021
00:42:01,270 --> 00:41:59,440
consider their blood type

1022
00:42:03,670 --> 00:42:01,280
when it comes to

1023
00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:03,680
compatibility with other people

1024
00:42:05,910 --> 00:42:04,960
or

1025
00:42:11,710 --> 00:42:05,920
their

1026
00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:13,990
[Music]

1027
00:42:19,349 --> 00:42:16,560
anyway our first result comes from the

1028
00:42:22,109 --> 00:42:19,359
examiner from tasmania and this is

1029
00:42:26,230 --> 00:42:22,119
published in

1030
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:26,240
1938 on the 15th of june

1031
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:28,160
is astrology

1032
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:30,000
true

1033
00:42:39,510 --> 00:42:36,240
that human character and abilities are

1034
00:42:41,589 --> 00:42:39,520
determined or even influenced by stars

1035
00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:41,599
millions of miles away

1036
00:42:47,430 --> 00:42:44,560
scientists are skeptical recently an

1037
00:42:50,550 --> 00:42:47,440
american psychologist checked up five of

1038
00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:50,560
the leading professional astrologers on

1039
00:42:54,309 --> 00:42:53,440
their readings as regard to one specific

1040
00:42:57,430 --> 00:42:54,319
point

1041
00:43:00,150 --> 00:42:57,440
all these horoscope makers declared that

1042
00:43:03,430 --> 00:43:00,160
people born between september 24 and

1043
00:43:04,870 --> 00:43:03,440
october 23 that is under libra

1044
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:04,880
the scales

1045
00:43:11,190 --> 00:43:07,920
seventh zodiac sign should have

1046
00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:11,200
musical ability if this is true then it

1047
00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:14,240
would be reasonable to expect to find a

1048
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:16,480
majority of musicians were born between

1049
00:43:23,829 --> 00:43:19,599
these dates the investigator ascertained

1050
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:27,510
musicians he discovered fewer were born

1051
00:43:30,710 --> 00:43:29,760
under this sign than under any of the

1052
00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:30,720
twelve

1053
00:43:36,790 --> 00:43:35,040
except for scorpio which tied with libra

1054
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:36,800
for last place

1055
00:43:41,109 --> 00:43:38,720
well there you go

1056
00:43:42,670 --> 00:43:41,119
now we go to the age published on the

1057
00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:42,680
19th of august

1058
00:43:49,430 --> 00:43:46,240
1939 and this is from melbourne

1059
00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:49,440
the signs of the zodiac

1060
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:52,960
an astrologer states his case

1061
00:43:55,990 --> 00:43:54,800
by g m

1062
00:43:58,870 --> 00:43:56,000
hm

1063
00:44:02,390 --> 00:43:58,880
today more than ever since the days of

1064
00:44:04,630 --> 00:44:02,400
ancient egypt and chaldea or chaldea i'm

1065
00:44:07,510 --> 00:44:04,640
not sure how that's pronounced people

1066
00:44:08,950 --> 00:44:07,520
are inquiring into the

1067
00:44:11,589 --> 00:44:08,960
science

1068
00:44:14,069 --> 00:44:11,599
of astrology which by observation is

1069
00:44:16,950 --> 00:44:14,079
seeking celestial causes for material

1070
00:44:18,790 --> 00:44:16,960
effects and establishing records of

1071
00:44:21,430 --> 00:44:18,800
planetary laws

1072
00:44:23,910 --> 00:44:21,440
calderage wrote quote there is no doubt

1073
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:23,920
that astrology of some sort or other

1074
00:44:28,309 --> 00:44:25,920
will be the last achievement of

1075
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:28,319
astronomy end quote

1076
00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:31,680
the ancients wrote myths around the then

1077
00:44:37,349 --> 00:44:34,880
known planetary influences but much has

1078
00:44:39,750 --> 00:44:37,359
been lost and new planets have been

1079
00:44:41,829 --> 00:44:39,760
found thus leaving modern astrologers

1080
00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:41,839
much to discover

1081
00:44:48,109 --> 00:44:44,480
the factors used in astrology are the

1082
00:44:50,390 --> 00:44:48,119
sun moon and the known planets and their

1083
00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:50,400
interrelationships or aspects

1084
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:53,040
the signs of the zodiac

1085
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:56,480
not constellations and the 12 mundane

1086
00:45:04,550 --> 00:45:01,990
the ascendant or eastern horizon and the

1087
00:45:06,470 --> 00:45:04,560
mid heaven are the strongest mundane

1088
00:45:09,670 --> 00:45:06,480
points

1089
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:09,680
the fixed stars when prominently placed

1090
00:45:14,710 --> 00:45:12,720
have also been found to hold influence

1091
00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:14,720
to obtain accurate results the exact

1092
00:45:19,990 --> 00:45:17,520
moment or within a few minutes of birth

1093
00:45:21,030 --> 00:45:20,000
must be known as well as the place and

1094
00:45:23,589 --> 00:45:21,040
date

1095
00:45:26,230 --> 00:45:23,599
unless two persons are born in the same

1096
00:45:28,950 --> 00:45:26,240
place at the same time of the same

1097
00:45:30,309 --> 00:45:28,960
parents there can be no two persons

1098
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:30,319
alike

1099
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:33,599
the skeptic derides the idea of

1100
00:45:39,990 --> 00:45:36,160
planetary influence on human life

1101
00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:40,000
but in astrology the sun is a great

1102
00:45:45,589 --> 00:45:42,000
life-giver

1103
00:45:47,829 --> 00:45:45,599
okay then that certainly

1104
00:45:50,470 --> 00:45:47,839
beats the skeptics doesn't it

1105
00:45:53,030 --> 00:45:50,480
where would we be without the sun

1106
00:45:56,309 --> 00:45:53,040
if astronomers assert the planets are

1107
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:56,319
chunks of the sun is it not logical to

1108
00:46:01,990 --> 00:46:00,000
assume their influence also it was only

1109
00:46:04,470 --> 00:46:02,000
recently that the critics of the day

1110
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:04,480
were scoffing at the inventors of the

1111
00:46:10,230 --> 00:46:07,200
telephone and radio and questioning

1112
00:46:15,349 --> 00:46:10,240
their mentality but now we know more of

1113
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:17,589
it is now realized that all matter is in

1114
00:46:22,150 --> 00:46:19,920
a state of constant motion the harder

1115
00:46:26,390 --> 00:46:22,160
the material the slower the vibration

1116
00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:26,400
ice is water at a low rate of vibration

1117
00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:29,280
steam is at a higher rate of vibration

1118
00:46:34,790 --> 00:46:32,800
man also has his rate of vibration the

1119
00:46:35,829 --> 00:46:34,800
lower the vibration the more brutal the

1120
00:46:37,829 --> 00:46:35,839
type

1121
00:46:39,910 --> 00:46:37,839
and vice versa

1122
00:46:42,150 --> 00:46:39,920
i hope you're all taking notes

1123
00:46:44,470 --> 00:46:42,160
what has all this to do with the planets

1124
00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:44,480
the planets emit vibrations which have

1125
00:46:48,870 --> 00:46:46,800
been found by observation to influence

1126
00:46:50,710 --> 00:46:48,880
these material vibrations

1127
00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:50,720
a note played on a violin will bring

1128
00:46:53,829 --> 00:46:52,800
response from another violin in the same

1129
00:46:57,030 --> 00:46:53,839
room

1130
00:46:58,069 --> 00:46:57,040
so-called space does not prevent similar

1131
00:47:00,630 --> 00:46:58,079
harmony

1132
00:47:02,710 --> 00:47:00,640
or discord between the planets

1133
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:02,720
and ourselves

1134
00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:04,560
because we all know sound can travel

1135
00:47:08,950 --> 00:47:06,960
through a vacuum

1136
00:47:10,710 --> 00:47:08,960
traditionally jupiter has always been

1137
00:47:13,349 --> 00:47:10,720
the greater benefit

1138
00:47:15,430 --> 00:47:13,359
and is said to uplift those born under

1139
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:15,440
its influence the great duke of

1140
00:47:21,109 --> 00:47:17,920
wellington was born with jupiter in the

1141
00:47:23,030 --> 00:47:21,119
mid heaven of the house of honor he

1142
00:47:27,270 --> 00:47:23,040
never lost the battle and was never

1143
00:47:30,069 --> 00:47:27,280
disgraced george v was not the direct

1144
00:47:32,390 --> 00:47:30,079
heir to the throne he had jupiter as a

1145
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:32,400
mid-heaven george vi

1146
00:47:37,190 --> 00:47:35,200
as duke of york was in the same position

1147
00:47:40,549 --> 00:47:37,200
he also had jupiter in the house of

1148
00:47:43,750 --> 00:47:40,559
honor the late tasmanian premier mr

1149
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:43,760
ogilvy had jupiter in the mid heaven

1150
00:47:47,270 --> 00:47:45,440
this is not the sole factor but it

1151
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:47,280
greatly assists

1152
00:47:50,950 --> 00:47:49,920
saturn was also said to swallow his

1153
00:47:53,109 --> 00:47:50,960
children

1154
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:53,119
placed prominently in the mid heaven

1155
00:47:57,349 --> 00:47:55,119
this planet has been found to raise

1156
00:48:00,230 --> 00:47:57,359
people high above their birth station

1157
00:48:03,030 --> 00:48:00,240
but with ultimate downfall or disgrace

1158
00:48:04,309 --> 00:48:03,040
idea often literally giving falls from

1159
00:48:07,190 --> 00:48:04,319
great heights

1160
00:48:10,549 --> 00:48:07,200
napoleon had saturn in his mid-heaven

1161
00:48:12,790 --> 00:48:10,559
hitler also significantly has it by

1162
00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:12,800
similar methods of observation it has

1163
00:48:17,990 --> 00:48:15,280
been found that the ancients were not so

1164
00:48:19,510 --> 00:48:18,000
foolish in their allotting of influences

1165
00:48:22,870 --> 00:48:19,520
to the planets

1166
00:48:23,750 --> 00:48:22,880
mars is truly the planet of war venus of

1167
00:48:25,829 --> 00:48:23,760
love

1168
00:48:27,589 --> 00:48:25,839
and so on

1169
00:48:30,390 --> 00:48:27,599
the later planets

1170
00:48:33,430 --> 00:48:30,400
but what of the recently discovered

1171
00:48:36,549 --> 00:48:33,440
planets uranus neptune and pluto

1172
00:48:38,309 --> 00:48:36,559
uranus was discovered in 1781 neptune in

1173
00:48:40,710 --> 00:48:38,319
1846

1174
00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:40,720
and pluto in 1930.

1175
00:48:46,069 --> 00:48:43,760
the uninitiated wonder how these planets

1176
00:48:49,990 --> 00:48:46,079
were a lot of their influence but how

1177
00:48:52,790 --> 00:48:50,000
many engineers were there before 1781.

1178
00:48:53,910 --> 00:48:52,800
how many electricians radio experts

1179
00:48:56,790 --> 00:48:53,920
airmen

1180
00:48:58,470 --> 00:48:56,800
these are the vocations that uranus has

1181
00:49:01,430 --> 00:48:58,480
been found to govern

1182
00:49:03,190 --> 00:49:01,440
it is the planet of suddenness

1183
00:49:06,790 --> 00:49:03,200
unexpectedness

1184
00:49:08,309 --> 00:49:06,800
and speed and has been called quote the

1185
00:49:09,430 --> 00:49:08,319
awakener

1186
00:49:12,069 --> 00:49:09,440
end quote

1187
00:49:15,190 --> 00:49:12,079
since its discovery civilization has

1188
00:49:16,470 --> 00:49:15,200
speeded up it rotates on its axis in the

1189
00:49:18,309 --> 00:49:16,480
opposite direction

1190
00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:18,319
to the other planets

1191
00:49:24,790 --> 00:49:20,880
and people born with eunice strong are

1192
00:49:27,990 --> 00:49:24,800
strange orthodox and iconoclastic

1193
00:49:29,910 --> 00:49:28,000
they go against the usual run of things

1194
00:49:30,950 --> 00:49:29,920
i hope you are still all taking notes

1195
00:49:34,390 --> 00:49:30,960
out there

1196
00:49:37,309 --> 00:49:34,400
and neptune mysterious distant planet

1197
00:49:40,390 --> 00:49:37,319
how many spiritualists were there before

1198
00:49:41,589 --> 00:49:40,400
1846 the rochester knockings which

1199
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:41,599
started the

1200
00:49:47,109 --> 00:49:44,480
movement occurred in 1884

1201
00:49:49,430 --> 00:49:47,119
astrologers have found that mediums

1202
00:49:51,270 --> 00:49:49,440
psychics and those interested in ghosts

1203
00:49:54,390 --> 00:49:51,280
and other world matters

1204
00:49:56,230 --> 00:49:54,400
have neptune prominently placed in their

1205
00:49:59,030 --> 00:49:56,240
nativity

1206
00:50:01,910 --> 00:49:59,040
neptune gives the spiritualist an

1207
00:50:03,510 --> 00:50:01,920
idealist on one hand and on the other

1208
00:50:04,950 --> 00:50:03,520
the drug addict

1209
00:50:06,870 --> 00:50:04,960
the drunkard

1210
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:06,880
and the swindler

1211
00:50:10,790 --> 00:50:08,880
disclaimer the skeptic's own podcast

1212
00:50:13,589 --> 00:50:10,800
makes no assertions about any listener

1213
00:50:15,270 --> 00:50:13,599
born under any particular side

1214
00:50:17,829 --> 00:50:15,280
we read on

1215
00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:17,839
pluto named after the ancient god of the

1216
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:20,400
underworld is found to be upholding his

1217
00:50:26,069 --> 00:50:23,440
ancient reputation since his discovery

1218
00:50:27,829 --> 00:50:26,079
in 1930 man has been turning his

1219
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:27,839
attention underground for protection

1220
00:50:32,549 --> 00:50:29,760
from air raids

1221
00:50:35,670 --> 00:50:32,559
recently america britain and france each

1222
00:50:38,230 --> 00:50:35,680
suffered a submarine disaster

1223
00:50:41,270 --> 00:50:38,240
at the time mars was in opposition to

1224
00:50:44,150 --> 00:50:41,280
pluto pluto was also notorious for

1225
00:50:45,670 --> 00:50:44,160
kidnapping and strangely enough

1226
00:50:47,990 --> 00:50:45,680
strangely enough

1227
00:50:50,069 --> 00:50:48,000
following his discovery the kidnapping

1228
00:50:52,470 --> 00:50:50,079
vogue appeared

1229
00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:52,480
colonel lindberg's son had pluto in the

1230
00:50:56,870 --> 00:50:54,800
mid heaven and i think that of course

1231
00:50:59,349 --> 00:50:56,880
refers to the sad case of charles

1232
00:51:02,470 --> 00:50:59,359
lindbergh's son being kidnapped and i

1233
00:51:03,990 --> 00:51:02,480
think he uh he was killed if memory

1234
00:51:06,630 --> 00:51:04,000
serves

1235
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:06,640
and so by observation astrologers

1236
00:51:11,990 --> 00:51:09,119
studied the effects of celestial causes

1237
00:51:14,710 --> 00:51:12,000
they do not teach fatalism as is

1238
00:51:16,549 --> 00:51:14,720
generally supposed the planets give the

1239
00:51:19,190 --> 00:51:16,559
stimulus for action but they do not

1240
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:19,200
compel us to act if anything is

1241
00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:20,640
commenced under

1242
00:51:26,630 --> 00:51:23,040
adverse planetary conditions it will

1243
00:51:28,470 --> 00:51:26,640
have a much severe passage and far

1244
00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:28,480
greater chance of failure than if

1245
00:51:33,030 --> 00:51:31,760
commenced under favorable planetary

1246
00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:33,040
stimulus

1247
00:51:37,190 --> 00:51:35,440
i must remember that astrologers claim

1248
00:51:39,670 --> 00:51:37,200
it takes more than

1249
00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:39,680
ordinary people to quote rule their

1250
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:42,480
stars end quote they cannot with

1251
00:51:47,190 --> 00:51:44,640
certainty predict events and their

1252
00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:47,200
effects but with their knowledge of

1253
00:51:53,270 --> 00:51:50,160
influences at any given year of life and

1254
00:51:56,230 --> 00:51:53,280
of human nature in the average they can

1255
00:51:57,589 --> 00:51:56,240
say fairly correctly what conditions

1256
00:52:01,349 --> 00:51:57,599
will beset

1257
00:52:03,670 --> 00:52:01,359
the life and their probable effects

1258
00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:03,680
even with these limits the astrologer

1259
00:52:10,150 --> 00:52:07,200
asserts this advice must be of value to

1260
00:52:13,349 --> 00:52:10,160
balanced and intelligent people who

1261
00:52:15,270 --> 00:52:13,359
would be prepared to meet favorable and

1262
00:52:17,349 --> 00:52:15,280
other conditions

1263
00:52:18,549 --> 00:52:17,359
all people are subject to climactic

1264
00:52:20,950 --> 00:52:18,559
conditions

1265
00:52:23,589 --> 00:52:20,960
whether living in melbourne or at the

1266
00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:23,599
tropics the farmer cannot choose his

1267
00:52:28,790 --> 00:52:26,480
weather but his reasoning powers enable

1268
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:28,800
him to increase his crop by inventions

1269
00:52:33,109 --> 00:52:30,960
and discoveries the weather can usually

1270
00:52:35,190 --> 00:52:33,119
be estimated in advance

1271
00:52:37,750 --> 00:52:35,200
seasonable times for certain activities

1272
00:52:39,910 --> 00:52:37,760
can be calculated enabling him to work

1273
00:52:42,630 --> 00:52:39,920
to advantage

1274
00:52:45,270 --> 00:52:42,640
astrologers claim to be able with a fair

1275
00:52:48,390 --> 00:52:45,280
amount of accuracy to measure prevailing

1276
00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:48,400
conditions and to sum up in a general

1277
00:52:53,030 --> 00:52:50,960
sense the person they apply to but

1278
00:52:55,510 --> 00:52:53,040
the most they can say

1279
00:52:58,150 --> 00:52:55,520
is the probability of certain results

1280
00:53:00,549 --> 00:52:58,160
yet this is better than being able to

1281
00:53:03,990 --> 00:53:00,559
say with certainty otherwise it would

1282
00:53:07,109 --> 00:53:04,000
mean that all things are inevitable and

1283
00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:07,119
reason and intelligence have no choice

1284
00:53:12,230 --> 00:53:08,960
it may be understood therefore that

1285
00:53:14,630 --> 00:53:12,240
astrology is what its name implies the

1286
00:53:17,910 --> 00:53:14,640
logic of the stars

1287
00:53:20,710 --> 00:53:17,920
cheap mass production horoscopes are not

1288
00:53:22,710 --> 00:53:20,720
genuine astrology so there

1289
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:22,720
these are merely based on the sun's

1290
00:53:28,710 --> 00:53:24,720
position in the zodiac

1291
00:53:31,430 --> 00:53:28,720
they are about 1 12 correct and there

1292
00:53:34,150 --> 00:53:31,440
are many mixed influences to decipher

1293
00:53:37,030 --> 00:53:34,160
and much fine judgment

1294
00:53:39,270 --> 00:53:37,040
is necessary to arrive at correct

1295
00:53:42,390 --> 00:53:39,280
conclusions

1296
00:53:43,990 --> 00:53:42,400
and there shall be signs in the sun

1297
00:53:44,790 --> 00:53:44,000
and in the moon

1298
00:53:46,870 --> 00:53:44,800
and

1299
00:53:50,549 --> 00:53:46,880
in the stars

1300
00:53:52,069 --> 00:53:50,559
luke chapter 21 verse 25

1301
00:53:55,589 --> 00:53:52,079
now that's interesting to me because

1302
00:53:58,630 --> 00:53:55,599
that whole story including a diagram

1303
00:54:00,069 --> 00:53:58,640
which is a circle with the earth in the

1304
00:54:03,829 --> 00:54:00,079
middle and

1305
00:54:06,230 --> 00:54:03,839
uh sort of divided up i want to say here

1306
00:54:08,470 --> 00:54:06,240
ninth house science in religion etcetera

1307
00:54:10,549 --> 00:54:08,480
tenth house honor employment

1308
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:10,559
eleventh house friends

1309
00:54:13,430 --> 00:54:12,240
western rice yeah there's a diagram

1310
00:54:15,510 --> 00:54:13,440
there

1311
00:54:18,230 --> 00:54:15,520
but the point is this was published in

1312
00:54:19,990 --> 00:54:18,240
the age the age newspaper in melbourne

1313
00:54:22,309 --> 00:54:20,000
which is a

1314
00:54:25,829 --> 00:54:22,319
normally a respected newspaper but but

1315
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:25,839
this was published in 1939 just before

1316
00:54:31,910 --> 00:54:27,010
world war ii

1317
00:54:36,069 --> 00:54:34,230
so there we go a strange collection of

1318
00:54:39,580 --> 00:54:36,079
items and reports over the decades

1319
00:54:44,789 --> 00:54:39,590
revolving around the word zodiac

1320
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:44,799
[Music]

1321
00:54:52,230 --> 00:54:47,200
and no matter if you're a pisces a

1322
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:52,240
sagittarius a scorpio an aries or a leo

1323
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:53,280
you too

1324
00:54:57,109 --> 00:54:54,960
might find all sorts of interesting

1325
00:54:59,270 --> 00:54:57,119
things when you go to trove look around

1326
00:55:00,789 --> 00:54:59,280
because you never know you never know

1327
00:55:05,130 --> 00:55:00,799
what star signs

1328
00:55:05,140 --> 00:55:15,589
[Music]

1329
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:17,510
zodiac man

1330
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:20,640
he was a complicated puzzle an enigma of

1331
00:55:25,109 --> 00:55:22,960
the sign a multitude of types placed

1332
00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:25,119
together by design with all the

1333
00:55:28,309 --> 00:55:27,440
characteristics of the symbols of our

1334
00:55:31,670 --> 00:55:28,319
birth

1335
00:55:33,109 --> 00:55:31,680
in a melting pot of humankind a true

1336
00:55:35,990 --> 00:55:33,119
man of earth

1337
00:55:39,750 --> 00:55:36,000
he walked like a pisces and taught like

1338
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:39,760
a sag and wore the terean demeanor like

1339
00:55:45,030 --> 00:55:42,960
a veritable badge his style was affected

1340
00:55:48,230 --> 00:55:45,040
by the influence of the moon

1341
00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:48,240
but it's likely his libra came into cusp

1342
00:55:51,750 --> 00:55:49,680
too soon

1343
00:55:54,309 --> 00:55:51,760
virgo laid its hand upon this man of

1344
00:55:56,789 --> 00:55:54,319
many parts and his gemini certainly

1345
00:55:58,789 --> 00:55:56,799
stops where his capricorn starts

1346
00:56:01,670 --> 00:55:58,799
which gives you a perception that he may

1347
00:56:03,990 --> 00:56:01,680
have the ares although his cancer side

1348
00:56:06,549 --> 00:56:04,000
luckily is away with the fairies

1349
00:56:09,910 --> 00:56:06,559
aquarius has washed him where scorpio

1350
00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:09,920
stung it stings and leo roars loudly you

1351
00:56:15,349 --> 00:56:12,240
can hear it when he sings this man of

1352
00:56:17,829 --> 00:56:15,359
many colors with their influences clear

1353
00:56:21,030 --> 00:56:17,839
from a birth which broke records when it

1354
00:56:23,349 --> 00:56:21,040
went on for a year

1355
00:56:25,589 --> 00:56:23,359
some claim that he is layered by the

1356
00:56:27,670 --> 00:56:25,599
impressions of the stars

1357
00:56:30,549 --> 00:56:27,680
and if you study him very closely you

1358
00:56:33,829 --> 00:56:30,559
can just detect the scars where the

1359
00:56:34,870 --> 00:56:33,839
doctors separated him from his ego early

1360
00:56:37,349 --> 00:56:34,880
on

1361
00:56:53,670 --> 00:56:37,359
that's why he's now so precious

1362
00:56:57,510 --> 00:56:55,190
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1363
00:56:59,109 --> 00:56:57,520
zone podcast next week on the show i

1364
00:57:01,349 --> 00:56:59,119
hope to bring you

1365
00:57:04,870 --> 00:57:01,359
in the trove section

1366
00:57:07,030 --> 00:57:04,880
uh reports about telepathy

1367
00:57:09,430 --> 00:57:07,040
you don't hear that term much anymore

1368
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:09,440
it's like esp they're sort of antiquated

1369
00:57:13,670 --> 00:57:11,040
terms

1370
00:57:17,190 --> 00:57:13,680
telepathy hmm

1371
00:57:21,270 --> 00:57:17,200
and part three and the final part of tim

1372
00:57:23,510 --> 00:57:21,280
bendum series about the unicorn

1373
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:23,520
another big thank you as i always do to

1374
00:57:27,349 --> 00:57:25,760
the people who support the skeptic zone

1375
00:57:30,630 --> 00:57:27,359
by paypal

1376
00:57:35,030 --> 00:57:30,640
or patreon it means that for

1377
00:57:38,829 --> 00:57:35,040
what coming up to 14 years of the show

1378
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:38,839
i've never had to run commercial

1379
00:57:43,670 --> 00:57:41,520
advertising the advertising you hear in

1380
00:57:45,190 --> 00:57:43,680
the show for other podcasts or skeptical

1381
00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:45,200
groups or whatnot

1382
00:57:49,430 --> 00:57:48,240
is all done for free i firmly believe

1383
00:57:52,870 --> 00:57:49,440
that

1384
00:57:55,109 --> 00:57:52,880
um they're worthy of your attention

1385
00:57:56,630 --> 00:57:55,119
so those youtube channels those people

1386
00:57:58,870 --> 00:57:56,640
those podcasts

1387
00:58:00,789 --> 00:57:58,880
i don't get any kickback no favors no

1388
00:58:02,390 --> 00:58:00,799
money nothing from those

1389
00:58:04,230 --> 00:58:02,400
uh people

1390
00:58:07,109 --> 00:58:04,240
i just think it's the right thing to do

1391
00:58:09,829 --> 00:58:07,119
so your contributions mean i can keep

1392
00:58:11,270 --> 00:58:09,839
promoting things that i think are worthy

1393
00:58:13,349 --> 00:58:11,280
instead of

1394
00:58:16,230 --> 00:58:13,359
uh face cream

1395
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:19,510
or some sort of um

1396
00:58:26,390 --> 00:58:23,680
internet device or running shoes

1397
00:58:28,390 --> 00:58:26,400
or vpns or whatever now i don't knock

1398
00:58:30,870 --> 00:58:28,400
podcasts that do it i mean we all have

1399
00:58:32,630 --> 00:58:30,880
to make an income i mean these things

1400
00:58:34,390 --> 00:58:32,640
don't just magically happen for free

1401
00:58:35,670 --> 00:58:34,400
there are bills to pay believe me there

1402
00:58:37,589 --> 00:58:35,680
are bills to pay

1403
00:58:40,309 --> 00:58:37,599
there's a lot of work goes into making

1404
00:58:41,670 --> 00:58:40,319
podcasts um the skeptic zone is no

1405
00:58:43,670 --> 00:58:41,680
exception

1406
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:43,680
but thanks to the generosity of people

1407
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:45,599
who do contribute even if it's a couple

1408
00:58:50,390 --> 00:58:47,520
of dollars a week

1409
00:58:52,549 --> 00:58:50,400
that means that so far i can avoid

1410
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:52,559
running ads for um

1411
00:58:56,630 --> 00:58:55,200
peanut butter or something

1412
00:58:58,789 --> 00:58:56,640
actually i might write an ad for peanut

1413
00:59:00,710 --> 00:58:58,799
butter i quite like peanut butter

1414
00:59:02,630 --> 00:59:00,720
but for this week this is richard

1415
00:59:07,670 --> 00:59:02,640
saunders signing off from sydney

1416
00:59:10,950 --> 00:59:09,510
you've been listening to the skeptic

1417
00:59:12,309 --> 00:59:10,960
zone podcast

1418
00:59:15,510 --> 00:59:12,319
please visit our website at

1419
00:59:21,109 --> 00:59:18,630
for show notes contacts and to access

1420
00:59:23,349 --> 00:59:21,119
the back catalog of episodes going back

1421
00:59:25,270 --> 00:59:23,359
to 2008

1422
00:59:28,069 --> 00:59:25,280
you can follow the skeptics zone podcast

1423
00:59:30,230 --> 00:59:28,079
on twitter at skepticzone

1424
00:59:32,470 --> 00:59:30,240
visit our facebook page or leave a

1425
00:59:34,549 --> 00:59:32,480
review on itunes

1426
00:59:37,829 --> 00:59:34,559
you can also support the skeptic zone

1427
00:59:41,109 --> 00:59:37,839
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

1428
00:59:42,789 --> 00:59:41,119
podcast is an independent production the

1429
00:59:45,030 --> 00:59:42,799
views and opinions expressed on the

1430
00:59:47,589 --> 00:59:45,040
skeptic zone are not necessarily those

1431
01:00:02,950 --> 00:59:47,599
of australian skeptics or any other

1432
01:00:07,670 --> 01:00:05,349
hello to those people who listen after

1433
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:07,680
the show i haven't done this for a while

1434
01:00:13,430 --> 01:00:09,839
let me see this one

1435
01:00:15,430 --> 01:00:13,440
let's play the dice game this is

1436
01:00:18,549 --> 01:00:15,440
this is where you use your psychic

1437
01:00:21,109 --> 01:00:18,559
magical mystical guessing powers

1438
01:00:22,549 --> 01:00:21,119
and see if you can predict the uh the

1439
01:00:23,349 --> 01:00:22,559
fall of the dice

1440
01:00:28,069 --> 01:00:23,359
die

1441
01:00:31,190 --> 01:00:28,079
five six seven eight nine or ten so

1442
01:00:32,710 --> 01:00:31,200
you're predicting the past

1443
01:00:34,470 --> 01:00:32,720
because

1444
01:00:36,710 --> 01:00:34,480
of course obviously you're listening to

1445
01:00:37,670 --> 01:00:36,720
a recording and this has happened

1446
01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:37,680
um

1447
01:00:43,349 --> 01:00:40,240
a day or two ago yesterday some

1448
01:00:44,950 --> 01:00:43,359
whatever it's happened however you have

1449
01:00:45,910 --> 01:00:44,960
to predict what

1450
01:00:48,789 --> 01:00:45,920
will come

1451
01:00:50,789 --> 01:00:48,799
through your earphones next what number

1452
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:50,799
it's a bit complicated wibbly wobbly

1453
01:00:55,910 --> 01:00:53,040
tiny why me you know okay

1454
01:00:57,990 --> 01:00:55,920
it's a d10 as i said first roll so guess

1455
01:00:59,030 --> 01:00:58,000
predict use your psychic powers your

1456
01:00:59,829 --> 01:00:59,040
lucky

1457
01:01:03,270 --> 01:00:59,839
luck

1458
01:01:05,670 --> 01:01:03,280
here we go the first number coming up is

1459
01:01:07,430 --> 01:01:05,680
three

1460
01:01:08,630 --> 01:01:07,440
so i write on my skeptic's own notepad

1461
01:01:10,230 --> 01:01:08,640
with my

1462
01:01:16,150 --> 01:01:10,240
skeptic's own pencil and drop the dice

1463
01:01:20,630 --> 01:01:19,450
what's that that is a nine

1464
01:01:22,150 --> 01:01:20,640
[Music]

1465
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:22,160
okay

1466
01:01:26,230 --> 01:01:25,200
here it comes

1467
01:01:28,630 --> 01:01:26,240
oh

1468
01:01:29,829 --> 01:01:28,640
it's a nine

1469
01:01:30,710 --> 01:01:29,839
three

1470
01:01:36,390 --> 01:01:30,720
nine

1471
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:36,400
number lucky susan gerbic are you

1472
01:01:41,330 --> 01:01:47,510
[Laughter]